Oy Bay!

"My heart is in the east, and I in the uttermost west." — Yehudah Ha-Levi

Armenian Genocide

Posted by minsky on October 10, 2007

armenian genocide mass grave scaled

Was there one? If so, why haven’t we heard about it?
For years, many many years now, the Armenian-American community has lobbied congress to pass legislation recognizing the massacre of 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turkey, as Genocide. At each and every turn, they were defeated.

The closest they’ve come to success, is now.

Their foe is tough, resilient, and vigilant. The Turkish-American Council , present and former presidents, and nearly the entire foreign policy establishment.
8 former Secretaries of State have written a letter to Bush, urging him to veto the most recent bill; I didn’t even know so many were still alive. More impressively, their letter writing campaign was organized by the Department of State!

The Turkish-American council board is a list of military-industrial fat-cats. Their chairman none other than Brent Scowcroft, former National Security Advisor under Bush and Ford.

If that doesn’t sound like a tough line-up to beat, their is one more player throwing his weight against the Armenian cause. The Israeli lobby. That’s right, it does get that bad.

Which makes me wonder. Since when have Jews been opposed to the recognition of the suffering of other people?

For quite some time, claim the Armenians.

Outrageous, no?

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29 Responses to “Armenian Genocide”

  1. lchaimlover said

    I went to high school in Massachusetts and we actually spent more time on the Armenian genocide then on the Holocaust in history. And I’ve met other students in New England who had similar experiences.

    As for why Israeli and Jewish lobbies are against it, beats me.

  2. minsky said

    Funny you’d say so, when I visited Massachusetts, I didn’t see a single memorial to the Genocide. In fact, I haven’t seen one anywhere. Furthermore, only 7 states mention the Armenian Genocide in their curriculum. Massachusetts, from my understanding, was one of the first to do so.

    This is an interesting list of Holocaust scholars who recognize the Genocide
    http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.21/current_category.3/affirmation_detail.html

  3. lchaimlover said

    Interesting, maybe you should look harder. In fact there is a memorial cross in San Francisco dedicated to the genocide, which was actually vandalized recently. Additionally, there are 20 others here in the states.

    While they may not have been a memorial in Massachusetts, we did have an all out Genocide Awareness day where many students did projects on the Armenian genocide and very few did anything on the Holocaust. I think our teacher wanted to emphasize that there were other genocides in the world.

    I think the subject of curriculum arises as to suit the local population. If there is a large Armenian population (as there was in the town I lived in) then there will be education to reflect them.

  4. minski said

    Honestly, I have never seen the cross. I must be blind. Most photos make it appear very hard to see. Just a coincidence?
    http://www.armenian-genocide.org/popup/memorials_view.html?MemImage=110

    By the way, this “memorial” became one only by virtue of a purchase in 1997. Does it constitue a mockery?

    You say there are 20? You are talking about the Khatchkar. Tiny, invisible. Yes, there are plenty around Armenian churches. But I’ll get cross if you suggest this constitutes memorials in the sense discussed here 😉

    You are joking, I suppose?

    There is a large monument, in called Bicknell Park in Montebello. You heard of Montebello. Imagine a Holocaust memorial, tucked aways somewhere by Kol Emet. Wouldn’t make me laugh.

    The question was, why does JINSA and ADL oppose, for years now, the recognition of the Armenian Genocide?

    I.e. why have we, so prominent in the Civil Rights movement, been so absent on this issue?

    Is this a possible answer?
    http://www.tolerance.ca/Article.aspx?ID=1659&L=fr

  5. kneidalach said

    My guess, is that Israel has interests to keep good diplomatic relations with Turkey, even though idealogically it is not correct.

  6. Oyster said

    When you take a big step back, Israel as a sovereign nation has had to make lesser-of-two-evils types of decisions since the days it was trapped between Babylonia & Egypt.

    I would recall the decision by the Ben-Gurion government to accept restitution money from West Germany not too many years after the formation of the State. Ben-Gurion’s political adversaries deftly manipulated the news of the deal, crying out against the “blood money” payment, and fomenting riots.

    Now, anyone that says that Ben-Gurion thought that money would justify the slaughter of European Jewry is a liar and hateful. The truth of the matter is that there were millions of dollars worth of Jewish assets that were lost in the Holocaust, and the Jewish State was financially teetering under the strain of the massive influx of Holocaust survivors and Jews of Arab lands. Ben-Gurion chose to help save those who were alive rather than be ideologically pure and refuse the money.

    I would say that Israel, again, in the case of the Armenian Genocide, had to make a similarly shitty decision. Make a purely symbolic and ineffectual declaration of an already established historical fact, or retain a key Muslim ally in a hostile neighborhood.

    If people truly want to pressure Turkey to face up to its history, then the focus shouldn’t be on Israel. It’s leverage is limited. The European Union, on the other hand, has enormous sway with Turkey, since Turkey is desperate to be accepted into the EU.

    I actually have a friend who is an Armenian Jew ( that has to be the most unlucky combo ever! ). I should ask him his thoughts on all this…

  7. Oyster said

    A good number of the Armenian concentration camps were in Syria. Considering that a lot (about 40%) of the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine at the time of its dissolution were Arabs that migrated there for work with the British and the Jewish Yishuv (mainly from Syria), that means that a fair deal of the Palestinians might have been involved in or witnessed the Armenian Genocide.

  8. minsky said

    I am not convinced about the lesser of two evils analogy.

    Many EU states recognize the genocide. Since France passed this into law, the Turks have become nasty, and its simply led to the rejection of Turkey as an EU candidate.

    I agree, the focus should not be on Israel, and the lobby is entirely wrong to oppose the legislation. They exaggerate both Israel’s leverage over Turkey, and Turkey’s actual ability to retaliate.

    We shouldn’t be compromising ourselves, nor history.

    As for the restitution payments. Right on. It was a tough debate, and those who abused it, clearly hated Ben-Gurion, while some made the arguments without any hate. Ben-Gurion himself said some stupid, which made it harder for everyone. At the end of the day, the issue was clear, restitution was a must. The Armenian genocide is equally a no-brainer. The lobby does us a disservice, by opposing it.

  9. kneidalach said

    I agree with Oyster.
    Maybe Minsky doesn’t know, but Israel gets a large supply of water from Turkey.
    Umm… politics or drinking water…? hmm… difficult choice….

  10. minsky said

    You agree with Oyster on what? He is not saying he is against recognition. Merely that the choices to be made may be difficult, but are entirely clear.

    And I hope thats what you are saying. Although based on your last reply on the chosen post, I am having my doubts.

    Let me put it bluntly:

    1) You want us to obtain water from an extortionist, i.e. you are condoning extortion, and Israel’s dealing with extortionists, and Israel being extorted. You consider this a good policy. You are saying, yes, let Israel be extorted.
    2) You are being extorted by a country, which cannot own up to its past, so you are in effect promoting their genocide denial, their impunity, their amorality. You don’t believe, do you, that there is any value for Turkey, in admitting Turkey’s own past? Expedience is what you value.
    3) By condoning the actions of those who negate the genocide, you share in its negation. You are saying its ok to negate that, which is not politically expedient.
    4) You are basically saying to Armenians, that in effect it is Israel, and the Israeli lobby, that will be against recognition, because the lobby and the state prefer extortionists, and political expediency.

    Talk about pathetic.

    Even Neturei Karta, which went to Teheran (which I am sure your moral relativism didn’t prevent you from judging) stood up and spoke up for the Holocaust, in Ahmedinejads face. other hand,

  11. jlifer said

    I have to say after reading everyone’s comments, I see Minsky’s point. Can the ADL really stand by and say “well, it’s for them (Armenia and Turkey) to duke it out”? Seriously, what if people told us Jews that the Holocaust was between the Jews and the Nazis?
    On the other hand, Jews are realists, and see the facts, and put their people as a first priority. What if Jews, and Israel, come up to bat and say “BAD Turkey” I’m SURE there would be repercussions for Jews in Turkey. What would be accomplished if the Armenian Genocide bill being passed with the full-fledged support of the Jews resulted in a mini-pogrom in Turkey?
    I think the real answer here is to put pressure on the EU, where it will matter and have some influence on the situation, just like boy-genius Oyster suggested. This is a tough one. BTW: interesting point on the Armenian concentration camps. So why again are we hashing out the Jews and Israel’s role in this whole thing and not berating Syria?

  12. jlifer said

    Oh, and I normally would try to keep the insults to a minimum here, but:

    “You are being extorted by a country, which cannot own up to its past, so you are in effect promoting their genocide denial…”

    What? This is a certifiably Lib-tarded comment.

  13. Oyster said

    Minsky wrote: Talk about pathetic.

    Minsky, JLifer, and all others: please remember to be respectful when commenting here. Please avoid ad hominem attacks, and just argue the points.

  14. Jewcer said

    Well, as a community, we Jews have always insisted that denial of genocide is an evil act. As Elie Wiesel puts it, denying genocide is like “killing the victims again”; another Holocaust scholar says that genocide denial is actually a final but integral step in the act of genocide itself. So, for example, by denying the Holocaust, deniers are actually complicit in the Holocaust.

    But as Jlifer points out, Jews–like Germans, Poles and others–are a realistic people. Complicity in genocide is perhaps a small price to pay if it stands a chance of earning us some safety and security.

  15. davod said

    The ADL recently changed its tack and supported the resolution.

  16. Oyster said

    Minsky:

    Even Neturei Karta, which went to Teheran (which I am sure your moral relativism didn’t prevent you from judging) stood up and spoke up for the Holocaust, in Ahmedinejads face. other hand,

    I challenged you on this before, and I have yet to see any material backing this up. Neturei Karta’s protest must have been in a perfumed-yet-sternly-written letter to Ahmadinejad, cuz their delegation’s leader was all too happy to be kissy-face with someone he was so upset with for denying the Holocaust.

    Most of the Haredi community, even the non- or anti-Zionist factions, consider them to be media-whoring weirdos, as I linked to in my previous comment.

  17. Mike said

    The Armenian Genocide gets complicated because it involves Turkey’s identity. It was the radicalized politics of Mustafa Kemal’s Young Turks that led to a Muslim-only movement to expel Armenians from Turkey during WWI. It was also Mustafa Kemal’s educational reforms that led Turkey to become one of the only secular Muslim countries in the world, with its obvious importance in today’s world. The genocide occurred before Turkey existed as a state. The only point in common between the killings and Turkey is Kemal. This may be why Turks themselves are so hesitant to ‘fess up. If they did take responsibility, they could move to be like Germany and pay war reparations to atone for a very rough past. If they sully Kemal, they must re-evaluate their constitution.

    Basically, I think Turkey should just say, “hey, it sucked, and it was in the hands of our very mixed-up ancestors. The modern state of Turkey won’t repeat an atrocity committed during a time of upheaval and revolution.”

    Is this just about reparation money?

  18. Muslims Against Sharia commend House Democrats and Speaker Pelosi for pressing ahead with an Armenian genocide bill. Republican opposition to the bill is pure manifestation of moral relativism.
    Muslims Against Sharia condemn Turkish government for refusing to acknowledge Armenian genocide and recalling its US ambassador in response to the bill.

    Source: AFP
    Post

  19. minsky said

    I doubt the bill will be passed, with the PR war waged on mainstream media. Nasty crap they are putting out. Amounts to bullying. But note, its not the Turks, its their American supporters going all out. Turks have not issued any statement of threat. Murdoch and comp do it for them.

    That said,

    a moral compromise on the Armenian genocide is equivalent to a moral compromise on the Holocaust. Don’t point the finger at Tehran conference after this, you have no moral standing.

    Anyone abetting Turkish denial, is complicit in it.

    If Turkey wants to be a modern country, it should get real, and no raison d’etat can trump that.

    ***

    Muslims against Sharia, I salute you.

    ***
    I am not aware of any ADL reversal of its position, because it never stated a clear position. The ADL has been side-stepping, dodging, ducking, and evasive. Foxman has issued no new statements.

    ***

    About Neturei Karta. Source: statement at Teheran Conference, available on Karta website. Neither discreet nor perfumed, but frank and mater-of-fact. Verify to your satisfaction. As I’ve said before, I resent Neturei Karta’s marginalisation by mainstream Jewish press, and will not participate in it. I suppose we cannot see eye to eye on this.

  20. Oyster said

    Minsky:

    Turks have not issued any statement of threat

    You’re joking, right? Turkey has vociferously protested any such
    move. Here’s just the latest installment:
    Turkey Threatens Retaliation over US genocide Bill

    I am not aware of any ADL reversal of its position, because it
    never stated a clear position. The ADL has been side-stepping,
    dodging, ducking, and evasive. Foxman has issued no new
    statements.

    Oh geez, what a dodge on your part. Just because it’s inconvenient to
    your tirade against the ADL you refuse to recognize the fact that
    they’ve finally have recognized the Armenian Genocide? Does Foxman
    kick puppies & eat babies, too? He did in fact make a statement, back in August,
    clearly calling the event a genocide:
    “… were indeed tantamount to genocide.”.

    Wow, so after all blistering invective you threw around regarding
    Neturei Karta, and their pure intentions, all that you can find in
    their defense is
    a statement on their own website
    ? One put up after the fact? And not a
    single independent news source to back them up?

    If they knew that the presence of Jews in ultra-Orthodox garb at a
    Holocaust denial conference was going to be so sensational, don’t you
    think they would provide an explanation before or during the
    convention, instead of embracing and kissing its lead organizer? What
    an effective means of demonstrating one’s displeasure…

    I’ve linked to both Zionist & non-Zionist Orthodox Jewish publications
    that have denounced NK as a ‘group of weirdos’. Minsky, in the Talmud,
    the majority opinion holds, not the minority. Despite all your best
    efforts to try to portray the NK position as that of the majority of
    Jews (even amongst the Orthodox), you are unfortunately wrong.

    What do you hold superior, the opinion of Eida Haredit Hareidi council
    of Jerusalem, or that of Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss?

  21. minsky said

    It is cheap to speak of babies and ADL in the same sentence, or to suggest that I make Neturei Karta out to represent the majority. Playing with straw men, only invalidates your arguments.

    Read the links you yourself provided. You sound very sure of their content… which is puzzling, since they prove my point.

    1) In the link you provide on the ADL, Foxman is evasive with qualifying the action as a genocide, and clearly states his and the ADL’s opposition for the genocide resolution. His evasiveness has been noted:

    http://www.jcrcboston.org/newsroom/inthenews/adl-armenian-genocide/tantamount-to-the-holocaust.html

    http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh08222007.html
    http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh08272007.html

    Not only is the ADL officially opposed to the genocide resolution, it has contributed to the Turkish lobbying effort against it. http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=71599

    2) Turkish threats.
    The link you provided, is clear. The Turks offer vague and menacing phrases, meaningless in light of the present Congressional resolution, which is domestic, and doesn’t threaten Turkey’s national security. Turks have been carefull with more specific moves, like the “withdrawal” of the ambassador have carefully been characterized a consultation, not a withdrawal.

    On the other hand Livingstone Group, Gephard, and JINSA bandy specific threats on FOX, CNN, and NPR. Reason is simple. Turkey cannot afford to make such specific threats other than through proxies. Such threats would amount to threats to American national interest. Anything beyond Iran’s present rhetoric.

    The fear-campaign has names. Livingstone makes his living lobbying for barbarians and crooks (71 million dollars), is now arranging meetings between Lantos and Turks, informing the former of the “dangers” associated with the resolution.
    http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/17/america/17lobby.php

    Great to hear you praise ADL’s effort to find itself in such noble company.

    3) Neturei Karta.
    I am puzzled. The statement on their website is a transcript of the speech given in Tehran. It invalidates any accusation that they denied the Holocaust or made the case for Denial in Teheran.

    Of course, I am not sure why anyone apparently uneasy calling the massacre of Armenians a ‘genocide,’ has problems with a conference organized to question the place of the Holocaust in modern political discourse. Hypocritical, and shameless.

    I never proposed Neturei Karta is mainstream. I just find your desire to marginalize them, ridiculous. Their arguments were shared by vast majorities of Orthodox Jews up until the sixties, and there are many Chareidi who hold similar, or approximate positions, who for the most part do not vocalize their positions, from fear of being marginalized like NK.

    Personally, if you ask me who I respect more, a bunch of Zionists denying the Armenian genocide, or Neturei Karta who has the guts to acknowledge the Holocaust while surrounded by notorious Holocaust deniers in Teheran, I’ll go with Karta.

    As for the conference itself. The message was simple. You talk of censorship in the Islamic world, they talk of censorship in the Western World. Ahmedinejad has personally never denied the Holocaust, nor has the conference issued any denial statements. Similar conferences are held annually by Zionists…

    specifically those who cannot pronounce the word “genocide”?

  22. Oyster said

    Minsky:

    Did you even read that link? You say that it was given during
    their visit to Iran? Look at what that page says:

    The recent trip of Neturei Karta leaders to Iran has evoked much in
    the way of hysterical comment in some quarters.

    Who the hell opens up a speech by talking about it in the past tense?

    Maybe they do have their proported transcript somewhere buried on
    their site, but you have yet to provide it, and I have yet to find
    it. The onus is on you to link to it. It appears very shady that you
    keep on insisting that its there, but you cannot deliver the goods.

    Minsky, he says that the Armenian Genocide is ‘tantamount to
    genocide’. Now, I’m not sure what dictionary you might have on hand,
    but mine says that ‘tantamount’ means equivalent.

    Perhaps you’re reading from the same dictionary that says that when
    you wish to display your displeasure with someone for claiming that
    your slaughtered relatives were not murdered in a genocide, one should
    embrace them and kiss them on two cheeks on international television?

    Oh, that might be a nice way for you to display your displeasure with
    Foxman. 🙂

    I understand you being mad with them for continuing to block the
    resolution. I don’t understand that position, either. But you lying
    about the ADL’s position on whether or not it was a genocide doesn’t
    help your argument. It just makes you appear to be in a blind rage
    with an axe to grind for the ADL.

    On your “rebuttal”:

    Let’s see. One link that doesn’t work. One link to a “young & hip”
    Jewish blog’s cartoon, and two links to left-wing loonies. I don’t
    know about you, but I’m convinced.

    On Turkish threats:

    In general I agree. There’s been a lot of threats & posturing on the
    part of Turkey. Whether they intend to follow through on any of them,
    is another story. Their willingness to vote in their parliament to
    allow cross-border raids into Kurdish Iraq seems to be another such
    sign.

    Great to hear you praise ADL\u2019s effort to find itself in such
    noble company.

    I never did praise the ADL. I’d appreciate if you didn’t put words in
    my mouth.

    If your arguments can stand on their own, then you shouldn’t need to
    rely on denying what people have said (ADL’s reversal), or claiming
    they said things that they never said.

    On NK:

    That statement, that I linked to, is an after-the-fact excuse for
    their actions. Perhaps you have another document in mind. Please link
    to it.

    I just find your desire to marginalize them, ridiculous.

    Right. Big Bad Oyster is marginalizing them. Never mind the Orthodox
    press that rightfully calls them ‘weirdos’. Don’t dare let them take
    responsibility for their own actions… wait, that sounds like some
    other group that I know of…

    I\u2019ll go with Karta.

    Dude, it takes serious guts (& a long hot bath) to kiss Ahmadinejad on
    both cheeks in front of the international press. I’m sure that while
    the cameras & reporters weren’t looking, that Rabbi Dovid Weiss also
    gave David Duke hell.

    An independent verification of your claims about their confronting the
    Holocaust denial conference would be nice. I’m sure we can find such
    supporting material on David Duke’s website, or that of the PLO
    (respected & truthful reference, for sure).

  23. minsky said

    Wow, you make this really easy, eh? Every single statement you attribute to me, is wrong, and obvious misrepresentation of what I say. I sincerely ask you to be more honest, and a bit nicer. Why take out your anxiety on me, for smothering you get on other posts?

    1
    A) You provided the NKarta link (I only suggested you find it)
    B) It is the wrong link
    C) you attribute the link to myself and
    D) proceed to criticize it.

    This isn’t a straw man. Just a straw of bad luck?

    Why run all the extra laps. If
    E) you can’t find the goods yourself.

    Just kindly ask where they are.

    Here is what you are fastidiously looking for:
    speech

    As for the link you provide:
    Oyster’s foible

    I recommend everyone read it. You seem uneasy revealing the rest of its content… surely you have a blandishment in store for the Kartas?

    2
    My “lying” on the ADL position? Undermine my position?

    A) I never made any statement that ADL explicitly denies the Genocide.
    B) Hence I didn’t lie.

    BUT

    C) You lie in accusing me of lying
    D) Maybe your position (for the fourth time in a row), is undermined?

    Let’s be clear folks. From the start, I said The ADL is an obstacle of Armenian Genocide recognition.

    This was, and is a fact. To do me justice, you can quote the ADL on this.

    As for the ADL’s statement, it is some weird acknowledgment but cannot be considered explicit recognition! The logic, presented in the “tantamount” case, is just circuitous enough to evade the inevitable necessity of supporting the bill!

    You do know, that after Foxman made his statements, his Turkish friends weren’t amused? In response he placated, whined, and pleaded.

    Couldn’t I characterize your presentation of the ADL position, as a lie? Accuse you of intentionally misleading readers into believeing the ADL clearly considers the massacres as genocide? Clarity, my friend, doesn’t come with words like “tantamount”, but with simple present singular third person of the verb to be.

    Or do you sincerely believe that “tantamount” is as good as “is”? I think its clear, Foxman is deliberately un-clear. I suppose for you, and your laudable dictionary, anything tantamount to clarity, is equivalent to it?

    ***

    Let’s try this exercise:

    The massacre of Jews in Auschwitz and Tremblinka, was tantamount to a genocide. Was tantamount to ethnic cleansing… so we will oppose any bill that calls it genocide, or ethnic clensing. Just to be clear, folks. Of course. Ha ha, wink wink.

    Was it a Holocaust? It was “Tantamount” to one.. but don’t dare call it that in your textbooks.

    To clarify once and for all, what Foxman’s statement amounts to, I provide this Armenian article in its entirety:

    By Khajag Mgrditchian
    The Armenian Weekly
    September 17, 2007

    “We have never negated but have always described the painful events of 1915-1918 perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire against Armenians as massacres and atrocities,” said ADL director Abraham Foxman last month, adding that upon reflection, “the consequences of those actions were indeed tantamount to genocide.”

    Foxman’s carefully worded statement has been presented as proof by some that the ADL has changed its stance and now recognizes the Armenian genocide.

    If this is the case, let us—following the example set by Newton mayor David Cohen— exchange the words “Armenian” and “genocide” with the words “Jewish” and “Holocaust,” and speak of the Holocaust the way Foxman speaks about the genocide:

    “We have never negated and have always described the painful events during the years of World War II perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews as massacres and atrocities. The consequences of those actions were indeed tantamount to holocaust. Therefore, we suggest that Jewish historians, as well as deniers of the Holocaust, come together and create a committee to study the issue. We are opposed to all official recognitions of the Holocaust by states and governments, because we are convinced that that kind of recognition is counterproductive to the rapprochement of those who accept the Holocaust and those who deny it. We are also opposed to the idea of modern Germany compensating victims for crimes committed by the Nazis. We would also like to apologize to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and to the German people for insulting them. We make this apology because Armenia is surrounded by Islamic countries that threaten the existence of Armenia and deny the Holocaust. There are strategic links binding Germany, Armenia and the United States, and we are concerned about the safety of thousands of Armenians living in Germany.”

    Some may argue that Germany is not Turkey, that the Germans have come to terms with a dark chapter in their history; that Germany agreed to compensate the victims; that it does not have an Article 301; that it protects its minorities, allowing, for example German Kurds to speak Kurdish freely; that Germany has not invaded Cyprus; and that no country is threatened by Germany if it attempts to recognize the Holocaust.

    Even Abraham Foxman and his colleague, AJC executive leader David Harris, a self-described admirer of Turkish “democracy,” can see how this statement, which names the planned killings during WWII as “tantamount to holocaust,” is meaningless and far from proper recognition.

    Similarly, the statements made by Foxman and Harris are meaningless, and fail to recognize the genocide.

    Instead of relying on word games, Foxman could have simply said that “The ADL officially recognizes the Armenian Genocide, and calls on Turkey to end its systematic denial of history.” But he did not.

    Fortunately, that is exactly what the Jewish-American community is saying. Perhaps it is time for their leaders to join them.

  24. minsky said

    As for the rest of your nasty comments.

    Unlike you, I not only do not put words in anyone’s mouth, I don’t demonise what they say. You put yourself in ADL company, when you misrepresent equivocation as clarity. You stoop to their level, when you mention puppies, babies, and tirades.

    ***

    I was aware of Foxman’s statement, so it wasn’t news to me.

    In fact, in this debate, you seem hung up on stuffing more straw where none fits. A raven fleeing his own scarecrows! Statement after statement attributed to me, made by you, demolished by you, oblivious of what I have to say.

    ***

    You complain about links. Cached, click cached. I pasted it in, just for your sake, in the above comment. You seriously believe that by refering to someone elses’ article I more than outsource my arguments? I admit laziness, but not error. I saved everyone space.

    ***

    As for left-wing loonies. Becareful with labbels. Considering your reckless tendency to mischaracterize my statements, to vilify my criticism of the lobby, and to denigrate my position, you could be labbeled a loony in your own regard. You certainly appear reeling and grasping at straws. How about some civility? After all, wouldn’t like it if I slandered you as a genocide denier?

    ***

    NK. You can easily take up the burden yourself. Find any verification, dependent or independent, disproving the NK statement. You accuse them of lying, and ignore the arguments they made for being in Iran. We can all finger point, mischaracterize, call people liars, or nothing else is left, left-wing loonies. What else is there, when there is nothing else left? I am not at the stage where I will call you a hypocrite just for mentioning Teheran.

    ***

    As for kissing Ahmedinejad. Its been done before. British, French, Chinese, dignitaries. The evil doesn’t rub off, or does it?

    ***

    So lets be a bit more civil shall we?

    ***

    I don’t see what there is to debate here. If you can knock-off mischaraterising my position, what more is there to say? We can debate NK somewhere else. They are a tangent.

  25. Akinha said

    At least this documents are interesting

    http://es.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=dOkNPl73Rv0

    Second part

    http://es.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=kmcUDD6ML0w

    I think that Armenians use that claims to hide their genocides.

  26. Feisty Turkish Girl said

    http://feistyturkishgirl.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/the-armenian-genocide-the-truth/

  27. Fake falsified genocide photo. Poorrrsssssss

    http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=761444&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=29692112606&aid=-1&oid=29692112606&id=576889916#/photo.php?pid=761445&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=29692112606&aid=-1&oid=29692112606&id=576889916

    http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/ana7.html

  28. x-girl said

    Everybody listen to me!

    The Armenian Genocide, also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity, refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.

    It was characterized by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one-and-a-half million.

    And I want to add, that other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider those events to be part of the same policy of extermination.

    Every human must accept that.

  29. ”Armenian Genocide” claims are only false propaganda.

    http://angelsof1915.blogspot.com/2009/03/armenian-refugees-movements-and.html

    http://angelsof1915.blogspot.com/2009/04/fake-illustrations-used-in-armenian.html

    http://angelsof1915.blogspot.com/2009/07/armenian-genocide-lie-in-historical.html

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