SJSU Jews face a “Tunnel of Oppression”
Posted by lchaimlover on March 26, 2007
Every year, San Jose State University hosts an event called “Tunnel of Oppression.” This is an event where organizations from across the school host rooms about Oppression, both currently and throughout history. Last year the SJSU Jewish Student Union hosted a wonderful room about anti-Semitism. This year, a group called the Students of Change is hosting a room about the Occupation of Palestine. A description of the room is as follows:
We are putting contact paper on the ground and are going to place statistics facing up for people to see, like how many children were killed in the West Bank last year, how long is the “security” fence, how much aid did the US give to Israel, etc. there will be photos on the walls, one wall will focus on destruction of property, one on violence, one on children and one on the wall. There is going to be a monitor in the corner that is going to play a slideshow that I am currently putting together to show pictures/video of Palestinians in daily life as well as caught up in the struggle against oppression In the other corner we are going to put a cut out of a detained Palestinian.
While I agree that every voice should be heard in any issue, I have to admit that this sounds less than kosher to me; especially when the supporters of the room openly refers to JSU/Hillel as “opposition” and “Zionists”. When the JSU/Hillel asked if they could sponsor a room as to have a voice from each side of the issue, they were denied, they will be allowed to have a flyer with two questions on it: 1) What is Israeli policy? and 2) Why was it made? This is like throwing oil into the fire. Hillel will be making a brochure as well to help students understand what the situation in Israel is.
The creator of the room called the JSU attempts for fairness “censorship”, and said that she would be compromising her room in order to show both sides. The administration agreed with her. Again, not a very fair fight if showing the other side might “compromise” your argument. This is the principle of, “my argument doesn’t have holes in it in the dark, but when you shine a light through it…well…”.
The event will be held the first week of April on campus. Contact Hillel of Silicon Valley for more details on. Stay tuned to Oy Bay as we bring you more information about this event.
Oy Bay! 
alilyamongthorns said
The Tunnel of Oppression sounds like an interesting idea.
I was a little confused though.
Is it that Hillel is not allowed to host a room at all or they just can’t be part of the Palestine room?
If it’s the first then that’s not right and it’s a bit ironic it’s happening during Passover …
But if it’s the second then I understand why the Palestine room planners wouldn’t want to change it.
I think it would take away from the point they’re trying to make and the significance of how hard it is to live in the Palestinian territories.
Of course, I agree with you that there are two sides to the issue and that it’s misleading to just put up statistics on number of people killed and the number of miles of the wall and simply call the Palestinian people oppressed without discussing the reasons for a lot of these policies and Palestinian terrorists’ own behavior that causes a lot of it.
But I do think that it is important to include the Palestinians on that list because they have had their rights denied to them oftentimes (by Israel and its neighbors) and things can and should be better. On that note, maybe Hillel should ask that the room planners include information on the treatment of Palestinians by Israel’s neighbors. Otherwise, it seems like that room cares more about Israel bashing than the Palestinian people’s plight.
Thoughts?
By the way, where is the photo from?
Oyster said
ALilyAmongThorns: It’s my understanding that the Hillel did Antisemitism (with no reference to Israel) last year, so that they weren’t eligible to do it this year. Also, the Hillel wanted to have some space to have their own display, not to co-opt or share the Palestinian display. Correct me if I’m wrong, LchaimLover.
Also, LchaimLover: Where did you get this photo from? Some context would be nice. BTW, it’s hard to tell at first glance, but you can tell from the rifle’s sight that its not pointed at the kids. This photo is a case of “if I snap enough pictures of soldiers with rifles from enough angles, I’ll find one that makes it look like they’re about to shoot somebody”. Honestly, it looks like the soldier is off-balance and about to fall on his ass!
jlifer fo' sho' said
Hey I remember the Tunnel of Oppression last year. It was a great display! The “Students for Change” is that clueless group made up of “anti-Zionists” who say the “only solution” to the Israel “problem” is to “dissolve” the state. See my article in CampusJ: http://www.hillelsv.org/V2/contNewsDetalle.php?LLoiTRuxxesrwWwt=NzM=
I am so glad I am in Israel where I can see with my own eyes that this is a state that is trying to be moral in a very complicated circumstance.
These students call for change but maintain such a closed mind to any new ideas. The last event I went to, Sarah from SFC got SO MAD that the refusnik they hosted refused to get with their anti-Zionist agenda.
Here’s a little secret folks: I can tell you firsthand the Israeli economy is practically impervious to any of this insignificant cries for “divestment,” like these silly British protesters: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1170359844307
These are just disconnected youths looking for some way to express themselves.
Have a happy and kosher Pesach!!!!
Lee Kaplan said
Anyone with the slightest depth perception can see the soldier is not aiming his rifle at the kids but off in the distance. The photo was taken at such an angle that to the uninitiated who glances at it it should be perceived he is aiming at children. Another photo used with that one shows an Israeli soldier moments after he stopped a Palestinian demonstrator named Leila try to grab his rifle (the ISMer do that frequently as demos). They snapped the photo of him yelling at her to get away from his gun then replace the real caption with a claim he is brutalizing an Arab woman. Why on earth do you people allow yourselves to be used this way?
lchaimlover said
Lee- I can’t tell if you were intending to be rude or not.
I googled “oppression” and that was one of the first images to come up. The picture was used to demonstrate a very clear point that you all have made, it’s doesn’t matter where the gun is pointed, as long as he has a gun to protect himself, there will always be someone with a nice little caption to spin the gun is used.
alilyamongthorns said
Yeah, this is why I was asking about the photo. It seemed that the soldier wasn’t aiming at them. However, the children do look like they’re scared of him and the gun and regardless, it’s scary to have to live in an environment with guns.
I hope I didn’t distract from the actual point of the post with the photo conversation though …
Oyster said
LchaimLover:
It’s a safe assumption with Lee that he’ll spare no tact in his pursuit of a point. Though you might want to consider adding some commentary on the photo in your post to give it context.
ALilyAmongThorns:
You’re not distracting. The photo is very provocative, so it’s legitimate for us to discuss it. Distract away. 🙂
Sarah said
jlifer fo’ sho’ Says:
March 27th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
“Hey I remember the Tunnel of Oppression last year. It was a great display! The “Students for Change” is that clueless group made up of “anti-Zionists” who say the “only solution” to the Israel “problem” is to “dissolve” the state. See my article in CampusJ”: ….. As the founder of Students for Change, I have never stated that Israel should be dissolved and I think it is pathetic that people need to spread lies about me and the purpose of my group in order to keep people froming learnimg about the social injustices that are occuring in the occupied territories at the hands of the Israeli military….
“These students call for change but maintain such a closed mind to any new ideas. The last event I went to, Sarah from SFC got SO MAD that the refusnik they hosted refused to get with their anti-Zionist agenda.”….Again, LIES, I thought Yehuda from Breaking the Silence did a wonderful job in sharing his experiences..we even had dinner afterwards……
Sarah.
Oyster said
Sarah:
J-Lifer’s article quotes Hyatt, not you. Are you his Aaron? Has he changed his mind?
So you and “Students for Change” support the existence of the Jewish state of Israel, but you disagree with Israeli policies in the disputed territories, yes?
Sarah said
Students for Change does not support the idea of any racist state ..and Israel as a “Jewish” state is a racist state. However, it is not for us to decide the right of Israel’s existence, the fact of the matter is that it does exist. The purpose of this group is to raise awareness of Israeli policy within the occupied territories because it is detrimental to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike.
Oyster said
Sarah:
The Jewish people are a nation, not a race. There are Ethiopian black Jews, Yemenite brown Jews, and Ashkenazi (European) pale-ass Jews. What do they have in common? A powerful faith, shared history, and a shared destiny.
The majority of Jewish Israelis are non-European (i.e., from Morocco, Tunisia, Turkey, Yemen, India, Ethiopia, Iraq, etc.). And there are more black Jewish Israelis than there are black Palestinians. Why? Because there are no black Palestinians.
So why are you babbling about race? Merely for its inflammatory rhetorical effect?
Benny Blanco said
Oyster, to “a powerful faith, shared history, and a shared destiny” I would add common language and, once (and now again), territory.
alilyamongthorns said
I think simply reducing the concept of a Jewish nation to racism does injustice to actual racism. For example, France is a Catholic nation. England is a Protestant nation. But they are not often cited as horrible racist countries because they treat other religions with respect and equality (for the most part). On the other hand, what makes Muslim nations like Iran or Saudi Arabia racist is not that they’re Muslim but that they treat their minorities horribly. Therefore, to allow countries like France or England to call themselves Christian nations while condemning Israel for being a Jewish one, that’s the real racism.
That is not to say, however, that Israel is a perfect state devoid of racism. There has been and still is racism against non-white Jews, against Russian Jews (having experienced that myself), and yes, against Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. These are social issues that Israel struggles with and is working on. This is a new country, formed with people from all over the world and it’s going to take some time for these groups to learn to live together. Having said that, these problems have improved significantly over time (don’t forget, by the way, that it was only 40 years ago that blacks were fighting for civil rights here in the US). Israeli culture has adapted to include a lot of elements of Jewish Arab culture (like its food, music …), it has welcomed Ethiopian Jews as well as non-Jewish refugees from Sudan, Vietnam and other countries. It also has Muslim Arab members of Knesset, judges, soccer players on its national team, and beauty queens.
However, having said all that, I do get the impression that Israel’s policies oftentimes treat Israeli Arabs unfairly and seek to maintain the “Jewishness” of Israel above the democratic nature of Israel. So we have to ask ourselves, what’s more important? That Israel be a Jewish nation or a democratic one?
*disclaimer: I used the term “racism” a number of times in this comment to discuss prejudice based on ethnicity or religion so in those instances, that is what I meant.
lchaimlover said
So is anything labeled “Jewish” racist, or merely the state of Israel? Cause I know where to ger some great Jewish rye bread, but I don’t want to eat Racist Bread or anything. I find it offensive that you are implying by merely calling myself Jewish, I am also in the same breath calling myself a “Racist”.
To Sarah: I see that you didn’t respond to : “The creator of the room called the JSU attempts for fairness “censorship”, and said that she would be compromising her room in order to show both sides. The administration agreed with her. Again, not a very fair fight if showing the other side might “compromise” your argument. This is the principle of, “my argument doesn’t have holes in it in the dark, but when you shine a light through it…well…”.”
So I take it you agree that you don’t have much of an argument if the other side is represented?
Billal said
People have different views about what ought to be done to resolve or to alleviate the political situation (the issue of territory etc), even Israel is divided as far as political issues go. But as far as Israel’s current policies go, especially when dealing with Palestinians, much of the international community is completely against them. Palestinians are obviously oppressed by the Israeli government. Israel is clearly not a fair and a balanced state, anyone and who doesn’t see that doesn’t see the whole picture.
To acknowledge that Israel’s policy is destroying Palestinian homes, livelihood, and lives is not anti-Semitic, it’s the truth and many Jews including some Rabbis, political figures, soldiers are against the way Palestinians are currently being treated. As students we should stand against any sort of oppression and stop acting in a defensive, and a nationalistic way, because that leads to racism. We are better than that we know every one is equal and every one should have basic rights and liberties.
Oyster said
Billal said, “we should stand against any sort of oppression and stop acting in a defensive, and a nationalistic way, because that leads to racism.”
Sounds good. So nationalism is bad, eh? Okay. The Palestinians no longer exist as a national identity. They are just Arabs; mostly Muslim, some Christian. As for those refugees? They’re just Arabs living in other Arab countries. No problem.
Wow, socialism is great! No national identities! Woo-hoo! Workers of the world, unite!
Sarah said
In the sense that Israel considers itself to be a “Jewish” state, a state set up for the benefit of one group of people, this is cultural racism. To offer every Jewish person in the world the “right of return”, even if they have never set foot in Israel, while at the same time refusing to extend that same offer to Palestinians with title to the land, is discriminatory..and comes from the belief that refusing to allow refugees to return is necessary because otherwise Israel would cease to be a Jewish majority. This is the same reason that the “one state solution” would never work, it would involve too many Palestinians ..yet Israel, through settlments and military occupation, is making a two state solution impossible. and the only reason that the state of Israel is racist compared to England for instance is because there is not equality. and no not all things labeled Jewish are racist but the fact that only Jewish people can buy property in Israel cetainly is. I don’t think it is an argument to say that the Palestinian people living within the occupied territories are oppressed by current Israeli policy.
Oyster said
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:
The next person who uses the term ‘racism‘ to mean “when someone is a big fat meanie” instead of referring to specifically what, you know, it actually means, will get a very sternly written letter in the mail. POST HASTE. And I will look askance at you. And you will be severely shunned with reckless abandon.
Racism refers to bigotry and prejudice based on ‘race’ (as ill-defined as that word is) and/or ethnicity. Hating Christians (religion) is not racism. Hating women (gender) is not racism. Hating someone because they are a Danish (nationality) is not racism. Those forms of hatred, bigotry, and prejudice are just as vile as racism, but to use the term racism to describe them is inaccurate. Excessive rhetorical flaunting of the ‘R-bomb’ in civil discourse leads one to believe that it is being used merely to arouse emotion, and not to portray a scenario honestly.
Oyster said
Sarah:
OMG-d: “cultural racism”. MUST… CONTAIN… RAGE… See my ‘public service announcement’. And Webster’s Dictionary. And your 8th grade English teacher for a gentle-yet-firm spanking.
Wake up and smell the delicious Turkish coffee. The Palestinians want their own state. The Israelis want their own state. The “One-State Solution” is dead, chillin’ with Grand Muffti Husseini (you know, the Palestinian leader who was BFF with Adolf Hitler) and Yassir Arafat.
With that said, there’s no reason for Arabs to want to settle in Israel. They have Palestine. The Jews of the world have Israel, and the future state of Palestine will be for Arabs. The only reason for a policy allowing unlimited Arab immigration to Israel is as a strategy to destroy the Jewish state, and will do nothing to alleviate the suffering of Palestinians ANYWHERE.
And if you want to play the inequality card, fine. Jews are not allowed to live in Saudi Arabia by royal decree. Palestinians also refuse to allow Jews (regardless of their nationality) to live in their land. So is Arab prejudice hunkey-dory, while Israeli prejudice is loathsome and despicable? Sounds like a double-standard to me.
And where did you come up with your statement about Israeli Arabs not being able to own land? They own plenty of land. There are entire Druze, Bedouin, and Israeli Arab towns all over Israel. They even serve in the Knesset, and one is the first Muslim ever to serve in the Prime Minister’s cabinet! Why don’t you talk to Ismail Khaldi, the new Bedouin consul general for Israel in SF?
With that said, not everything is kumbaya between Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Ethiopians, Russians, Druze, Circassians, Samaritans, Bedouin, and Bahai. That is a given for such a diverse country. But your characterizations of Israel are so off the mark as to be possibly misconstrued as impressionist comedy.
Oyster said
ALilyAmongThorns:
Israel is and can stay both democratic and Jewish. There are many NGO’s in Israel, both Jewish and Arab, that work to improve the status of minorities in Israel. Check out the New Israel Fund, for example. Israel’s not perfect, and thus joins the ranks of many non-perfect democracies around the world. But a democracy, unlike theocracies like Iran or monarchies like Saudi Arabia, citizens can band together to improve their society.
There’s an adage attributed to Thomas Friedman’s book, ‘From Beirut to Jerusalem’: “Israel can be democratic, Jewish, and have the territories; but it can only have two of the three”. With the majority of Israelis wanting to be rid of the territories, Israel can remain Jewish and democratic.
Oyster said
LchaimLover said: Cause I know where to [get] some great Jewish rye bread, but I don’t want to eat Racist Bread or anything.
Geez, we’re only three days in, and already she’s talking about bread! MOST UN-PESADIK COMMENT EVAR! :-p
alilyamongthorns said
Billal said, “But as far as Israel’s current policies go, especially when dealing with Palestinians, much of the international community is completely against them.”
As far as the international community is concerned, it is often extremely and unfairly biased against Israel while ignoring other wrongs:
This is a video of the horrible remarks tolerated by the UN
PalestinianHuman Rights Council.This is an article about FIFA and its sudden concern over human rights in Israel after ignoring human rights elsewhere for years.
This is not to say that the international community doesn’t have any right to criticize Israel and, in fact, it should when Israel does something wrong. But as it constantly focuses on Israel while ignoring other and usually worse human rights abuses, it loses its legitimacy and the meaning of such criticisms.
Sarah said, “and no not all things labeled Jewish are racist but the fact that only Jewish people can buy property in Israel certainly is.”
You want to talk about racism/prejudice?
Well then I’m sure you’d be very concerned about the arrest of 2 Palestinians by the PA and Jordan for daring to sell a house to Oh no! Jews.
By the way, I do want to thank you both for coming to the site and voicing your opinions and challenging ours. I agree with you that Israel has flaws and that the Palestinian people are suffering. But I guess something that always leaves me suspicious is when people claim they care about human rights and then choose Israel as their focus. There is so much worse stuff out there. And I don’t think that Israel’s wrongs should be ignored or anything but I sometimes feel that choosing to focus on Israel and ignore other and worse human rights problems is more about demonizing Israel than human rights really.
Sarah said
Oyster..please do not send me mail or look at me sideways…I will refrain from using the r-word in your presence since it offends you so, but I have to disagree with you that Palestinians do not allow Jewish people to live in Palestine, I know several Jewish people who have done just that. I have a question, if not all Jewish people agree with the policies of the state of Israel then why is it considered an attack upon Jewish people to criticize the state of Israel?
Sarah said
alilyamongthorns, thank you for your response…there are human injustices occurring everywhere but I cannot stop injustice only the people that are being unjust can do that…all I can do is educate myself and those around me. The situation with Palestine, the role that the U.S. plays in the middle east, the current and ongoing tensions, and the very fragile state of affairs is an issue of utmost importance..as I mentioned earlier, the occupation of the West Bank and the current control over the Gaza Strip are creating instabiltity and expanding resentment…this is bad for both Palestinians and Israelis, and there are many people within Israel who criticize this policy, the international community criticizes this policy,..not because there is nothing better to do but because it is wrong.
Oyster said
Sarah:
I’m glad you’re taking my humor in stride. 🙂 I want to echo ALilyAmongThorns in saying that I welcome all civil discourse here; whether from the right or the left.
With that said…
I’m sure the Palis would be more than happy to host a few anti-Zionist Jewish ISM activists for a summer or even longer. You know, token expressions of openness. But would the Palestinians allow an entire town of Jews in their country, in the same way that Israel has entire towns of Bedouins, Israeli Arabs, or Druze? Evidently not, because they wouldn’t allow them in Gaza. Sounds kinda… you know… prejudiced to me.
The difference between Israel and Palestine is that Israel allows Israeli Arabs to live there, but Palestine demands that it is Jew-free.
And why are you pre-emptively defending yourself from charges no-one has leveled at you? It’s kinda like when a dude yells out, “I’m not gay!” for no apparent reason. :-p You are free to criticize Israel. Hell, it’s the Jewish people’s favorite past-time! But it is considered an attack on the Jewish people when you commit one of the “Three D’s”, as Natan Scharansky puts it: Demonization, Delegitimization, and Double-standard. In other words, there’s a big difference between, “Israel’s policies in the West Bank are detrimental to a final peace settlement between Israelis and Palestinians”, and “Israel is a racist, apartheid state that must be wiped off the face of the earth.” Not that I’m saying that you said that, but I’m just putting these two statements out there for contrasting. One is fair criticism. The other is rhetorical, hateful, and just demonizes Israel.
And I strongly recommend that you read ALilyAmongThorns’s link about Palestinians who were arrested for attempting to sell Palestinian property/land to Jews. It’s a capital offense in their society, and usually is settled with extra-judicial executions.
Sarah said
alilyamongthorns…
I just took alot of time to write you a response and it was lost. I want to thank you as well and just say that Israelis criticize the policy in the occupied territories, so does the international community and so do I, not because there is nothing better do to..there is suffering all over the place…but because it is wrong. I cannot stop injustices from occurring, only those who are being unjust can do that, but I can and should educate myself and those around me…
so today is Passover? Shalom.
Billal said
Man you guys are like pretty quick at responding. I’m glad someone agrees that Palestinians are suffering and yes, I agree there are other bad things going on in the world as well we should stand against all of them. Like my personal goal in life is to help people no matter what race or religion they are.
But anyways as of now though our goal is to spread awareness
of the people suffering in Palestine. I don’t think its offensive to the Jewish people at least I don’t see why it would be. I mean its not like we are voicing out political views about the issue at this event at least . Like I said before people have different views about it and thats for them to decide. As far as I know we are only giving facts and numbers. Anyways thanks for having us even though we are uninvited haha but for your curtsy I wont getting this place flooded with a whole bunch of “anti-Zionists” like me.
Billal said
be**
Oyster said
Billal, like, says, Anyways thanks for having us even though we are uninvited haha but for your curtsy I wont getting this place flooded with a whole bunch of “anti-Zionists” like me.
Don’t mess, Billal, otherwise I’ll summon Lee Kaplan! Then, y’all can duke it out while ALilyAmongThorns, LchaimLover, J-Lifer, and I sip (kosher) martinis, kick back and enjoy the show. :-p
Oyster said
Kind commentators of Oy Bay:
Please excuse
my dear Aunt Sallyour comments on this post. For a bit, the comments were out-of-order due to a time-stamp format change. We were not deleting or editing your comments, they were merely appearing in the wrong place (in the middle of the comments instead of at the bottom). They should now all be here and in the correct order.alilyamongthorns said
I stand corrected. Israel’s treatment of Sudanese refugees has not been very kind and I’m quite saddened to find out about it. I had based what I wrote on the subject on an article I had read about a specific refugee being welcomed in Israel and was not aware of the hundreds of refugees jailed in Israel. While many are eventually put in Kibbutzim their initial treatment is inexcusable in my eyes. Here are a few articles detailing what’s going on:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12891908/site/newsweek/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/807442.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/833962.html
Oyster said
ALilyAmongThorns:
You forgot the Ha’aretz article on how Israel kicks puppies. :-p
Jannah said
The so-called “JSU’s attempt for fairness” is not fair at all. In fact, it was censorship that was trying to be put into action, but was denied, which is the only fairness here in the situation. The JSU did not want the Students for Change to display all of the atrocities that take place in the occupied territories, which is censorship. The JSU’s attempt to cover up these facts was denied because it was unfair. Please tell me, how does an Israeli checkpoint oppress Israeli’s? If you can explain that to me without making stuff up, that would be a miracle. By putting on the Occupation Palestine room, the Students for Change are just trying to promote awareness of the situation which is rarely aired the American news. The deaths of Palestinians are hardly documented, if ever, but if one Israeli soldier is killed in action, which also rarely happens when compared to the amount of deaths of Palestinians, there will be no one that hasn’t heard of it. The JSU is just upset about the room because they can no longer hide the truth about Israel, which is that they oppress Palestinians and Palestinians are killed and abused without mercy. That is the real truth that no one can attempt to cover up, not even the JSU, though they are trying to claim that it is anti-Israel. By putting on this event, we are not in any way attacking the Jewish students on campus, we are merely trying to promote awareness of the Palestinian situation.
alilyamongthorns said
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=623205
Sarah said
well said Jannah. and Oyster, I am not pre-emptively defending myself..look at the title of the article on this page as just one example of the claims that have been leveled against me, Students for Change and our room in the Tunnel of Oppression in recent days. and if you are referring to the settlers in Gaza, have you not seen the settler violence against Palestinians? settlers live on Palestinian land but they don’t want to live alongside Palestinians, that is not conducive of neighborliness (new word, I know)…and it is not only ISM who are going freely into Palestine…
jlifer fo' sho' said
Wow, this was quite entertaining! Why is everyone being so polite? I wish this was the preferred method of interacting when Sarah wanted to spit in my face for asking the wrong questions at her event, or when Sulemain Hyatt and his lil hoodlum towered over me demanding I hand over my notebook and tape recorder after I attended one of their anti-Zionist meetings. Wanna talk about censorship?!? You people are so disillusioned… come over to your beloved Palestine and get a real taste of censorship. I *highly doubt* the JSU would ask that the images NOT BE SHOWN. From what I hear they simply asked for some space of their own, ie: the opposite of censorship. As a journalist, I can see right through the “anti” comments for their use of euphemisms and emotive language rather than specifics. You just need to deliver a good hard smack-down and they’ll simmer down (done and done).
I think that martini is in order.
lchaimlover said
Jannah & Sarah:
The truth about Israel? That’s what you want to reveal? I won’t go into the idea that the checkpoints protect countless lives from suicide bombers (where is the fairness in that?) I won’t go into the fact that you have no source for the “countless dead Palestinians”. But what do you know about Israel? What do you know about it’s people or culture? You call them Zionists, Racists, Oppressors, but every person who dies is a family member, a friend, a person. Did you talk to the mother of Ehud Goldwasser and see her cry as she spoke of her son? I know that every person apart of this blog has been to and experienced Israel. Have you?
Actually, come to think of it, what do you know about Palestine? Have you seen it? Have you been there? And please don’t tell me you watched Paradise Now, because that is not seeing Palestine. I believe those people do deserve there own state and the two state solution is the most feasible way to achieve that. Those people have been through a lot, but how does killing Israelis solve their problems? If you don’t support the checkpoints, then I take it you do support suicide bombings?
Palestine is suffering? Yes, it is, at the hand of it’s so called leaders. Israel, it’s not exactly the Ritz, you go to a typical Israeli town and tell me that any American would be able to reconcile Israeli middle class with American Middle class. I assure you friend the two are very different. Israel is like Palestine, a small Middle Eastern state with big hopes and lots of enemies.
I’ve met many Israelis and Palestinians, and the sad part is, they all kind of look the same, distant brothers and sisters fighting a war started before their time and not to be settled on a blog.
You keep your views ladies and I’ll keep mine.
Sarah said
oh, I remember you..I never spit in your face but I did call you a nasty person for trying to disrupt the event we were having..you really are a poor excuse for a journalist. You do misunderstand and since you were not present at the meeting, and I was, you should stop making assumptions, it only reiterates my negative perception of you. and if the JSU would like their own space they are more than able to APPLY like we did. In a reverse situation, Students for Change would not try to alter a room put together by the JSU.
Sarah said
lchaimlover
I don’t feel that Israelis as a whole are ..”Zionists, Racists, Oppressors” I feel that Israeli policy and the people who support it may be these things but as I have already said there are Israelis who disagree with these policies too…so don’t think that I am making any kind of generalized statements about ALL Israelis. Save the “have you been there” speech because for that to be valid you would then need to require every person fighting for any social injustice anywhere to have “been there”…you are against what is happening in Darfur correct? Have you been there?
Sarah said
ok, the posts are out of order, my post on April 6th, 2007 at 10:43 am is for jlifer fo’ sho’ in case you may be confused
Oyster said
Sarah:
Yes, something funky is going on with the timestamp. For instance, one of your posts is listed at 2:05 PM, and one of J-Lifer’s is from 3:11 PM. By my clock, it’s only 1:52 PM! WordPress weirdness, my apologies. I blame ALilyAmongThorns, who hates the BBC’s biased coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict that she was aghast to find that our timestamps defaulted to GMT. :-p To appease her, I changed it to funky PDT.
Oyster said
ALilyAmongThorns:
Those are EXACTLY the kind of puppies I’m talking about! Israel kicks them all the time! That’s why they’re laying down; not an unbroken bone in their cute bodies.
Oyster said
Sarah:
Very few settlements are on “Palestinian land”, in the sense that Palestinians owned the land. Many of the settlements that exist today in the disputed territories were Jewish settlements that were established during the rule of British Mandatory Palestine (when they had every legal right to do so), were destroyed by the peace-loving Egyptians and Jordanians, and then were re-established in 1967 when Israel controlled that land.
Under international law, an occupied territory must be governed by the set of laws of the last internationally-recongized government of that land. In the case of disputed territories, that would mean that they are governed by the laws of British Mandatory Palestine. Under the Mandate Government, Jews were allowed to settle wherever they chose within the territories of the Mandate. This provides a basis for the settlements that were constructed after 1967.
We can both agree that a lot of these settlements are not good influences in terms of peace between Palestinians and Israelis. But for you to claim that these settlements are on land that individual Palestinians owned is incorrect.
You also haven’t answered my question about why a viable future Palestinian state is dependent on cleansing the Palestinian state of Jewish towns. Is that not ethnic cleansing?
alilyamongthorns said
I want to challenge this “zionist” attack. I’m a zionist. That doesn’t make me a racist, a pig, an oppressor or a colonizer. I’m a zionist. I believe in the Jewish state of Israel as the ancient and uninterrupted homeland of my people. I’m a zionist. I support a sovereign Palestinian state next to a Jewish one. I’m a zionist. I condemn settler attacks on Palestinians and if that was my kids throwing rocks, their bottoms would be so sore they wouldn’t be able to sit for a week. I’m a zionist. I mourn the soldiers killed in the IDF and I support the IDF because it protects my family from terrorism. I’m a zionist. I believe Israel has done a lot to improve the lives and status of Israeli Arabs and I believe it should do more. I’m a zionist. I thank God for Israel every day because it allowed my family to escape years and years and years of oppression at the hands of Russia.
Billal said
alilyaamongthorns:
A two state solution is not necessarily a Zionist view. You may not even be a Zionist if you believe in a 2 state solution with fair borders, complete Israeli pull out etc, etc.
Anyways I think its a little too late for that, the wall is the proof that there will never be fair borders.
Believe me there are very powerful and “R word” Zionist out there who believe that the entire region belongs to the Jews. Sometimes I wonder if those people even want a two state solution they would rather have Palestinians be refuges in other Arab countries, or just oppress them so they the don’t really have a voice.
Billal said
Jlifer no more tape recorders for you next time, I think we have the right to say Don’t tape record our private conversations you can bring ur little note book tho
Sarah said
why a viable future Palestinian state is dependent on cleansing the Palestinian state of Jewish towns. Is that not ethnic cleansing?
I guess the question would be, *if* the settler community stayed, would they identify themselves as Palestinian or Israeli? If Israeli, then they are illegal residents. If Palestinian, they need to take down their walls, put down their guns, and share the roads…I read the article and I do not agree with the harsh PA policy towards those who sell property to Jews, but a) in light of the fact that Israel has used the tactic of buying land to add to the square footage of the state of Israel and b)Israel has certainly taken steps to ensure the Jewish nature of Israel and that has included the refusal to allow the right of return to Palestinian refugees, the barring of citizenship to Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens and the discussion of “population transfers” to name a few , can you blame Palestine for that when Israel is also guilty? Before the state of Israel, didn’t Jewish populations live alongside arab ones? …..
Billal said
Not to forget Jerusalem, the Holly city for Muslims and Jews. Plus the arabs towns in Israel such as Nagaf.
Yea there is a long history of jews and muslims living in peace. In the middle ages when Jews were being oppressed in Eurapean Christian countries, Many Jews moved to the Islamic Empire, because of better treatment and they were some of the best artists, and they exceeded in financial fields. They even helped muslisms conquer Turkey, Spain. Yes, they had to pay taxes for living in the Muslim empire, but the taxes were far less than what they were paying before. Well thats just one of the examples there are other examples like during the holocaust many Jews were hidden in mosques in Europe.
I think jews and arabs are fully capable of living in peace, and I think that would be an ideal situation. If Israel was more humane with its policythen Mayybe maybee people would forget how their land was snatched from then in 1948 and live peacefully
alilyamongthorns said
Billal, I think you have a very limited idea of what zionism is and you may want to consider learning more about it and its different variations before telling me I’m not one. Zionism is about having a Jewish homeland in the land of Israel. I agree with you that there are people out there who believe that Israel should include both sides of the Jordan river and that Palestinians should go live in the neighboring Arab countries and that are racist. However, the majority of zionists do not feel that way and don’t appreciate being called racist or pigs. Really, being a zionist is just like any other nationalist movement. It’s a nation of people that wants a homeland of its own free from persecution. So if you’re going to condemn it, then I suggest you start condemning Palestinian nationalism too because zionism is no less valid.
As for the wall, walls can be torn down. I can’t say I agree with the path of the current wall but I support one in general because I think it will protect the Israeli people from terrorism. If there was no terrorism there wouldn’t be need for any wall.
Sarah, if you support a “right of return” for people then I’m sure you support the settlement in Hebron increasing since that was the oldest Jewish community in the world until an Arab pogrom in 1929. Also, you brought up Israel’s refusal to give citizenship to Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens. Israel claims that is a measure taken to protect itself from terrorism (through fake marriages arranged just so a person can come into Israel and commit a suicide bombing, for example). Also, Israel is not alone in not providing citizenship to spouses. If you look outside the confines of US policy, you’ll find many countries that also do not provide such citizenship. Having said that, I personally disagree with that policy but I don’t see it as a valid reason to demonize Israel. As for the population transfers you mentioned, they may be part of the ideology of a few extremist groups but such ideas are not discussed in mainstream Israeli politics. And your final comment about Jews and Arabs living side by side before Israel, there were plenty of events that could be to blame for this no longer being the case that stemmed from Arab actions, not Jewish/Israeli ones. Like the Arabs attacking Jews as they saw their numbers rise, or refusing to accept any partition plans while the Jewish leaders did, or choosing to attack Israel as soon as it’s founded. But I’m sure it was the declaration of the state of Israel that’s responsible …
Billal, I find your inflammatory language about how “if Israel was more humane with its policy then maybe maybe people would forget how their land was snatched from them in 1948 and live peacefully” quite ridiculous. Or maybe if Israelis would forget their blown up sons, daughters and parents and live peacefully. Or maybe if Israelis would forget how they were kicked out of Arab countries, how they were murdered by Arabs in Israel, how they accepted partition plan after partition plan while the Arabs did not, how multiple Arab states attacked the state in its infancy, how Arab states attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, how after leaving Gaza the reward was Qassam rockets into Israel and live peacefully.
This is getting silly. There is a counterargument, like I have demonstrated, to every point you bring up. Just like I’m sure you have counterarguments to my points. It’s the never ending argument and it’s pointless. We’re not going to move forward while we’re stuck in the past. Can we just accept that Israel and the Palestinians and Arab countries have all committed wrongs? And then can we look practically at what can be done to make a better future? The settlements, while the Jewish people have a right to reclaim the land they’ve lived on for thousands of years until it was violently taken away from them less than a century ago, get in the way of the possibility of a Palestinian state and should be dismantled because peace is more important(this is my personal opinion). So if the Israelis abandon the settlements, then the Palestinians should not expect a right of return into Israel. They can return to the new nation of Palestine. It’s called compromise. Now I’m sure there’s about 20 ways to attack and criticize what I just said from the right and the left but that’s my personal opinion on the best solution for one of the problems and me trying to say, forget the past because we’re both right and we’re both wrong and move on so there can be peace.
Billal said
eh yeaa I agree its getting pretty lame we can go on forever about this, and I’m not even a Palestinian I don’t know how people actually living there really feel. It seems like both sides are raised to hate each other its very sad. We can’t solve anything but we can all start by learning about each other I guess. I saw this documentary where they were showing this organization where Jewish and Arab kids have to live together. They hated each other at fist but when the whole thing was over they liked each other so much that they were crying when they had to go back to their homes it was pretty touching.
Zohaib said
I’m coming from a secular viewpoint. Anything based on religious ideology should not be taken into consideration. If people want to come into Israel, thinking it is there place according to God, then the argument stops right there.
"Bill"Clinton "Al" Gore said
**Correction: the arabs towns in Israel such as Nagaf(I meant to say Nazareth)
I guess what I’m trying to say is that we should all be friends(or at least pretend to be). Who knows maybe there are interests that we have in common. I don’t knoww likee soccer, music, foods , volunteering, we can find something…..
It’s funny haha how I’m saying this right before the tunnel of oppression event , but still.
“Like” I have been learning more about Zionism. (doesn’t mean I support it)
Oyster said
Zohaib says, I’m coming from a secular viewpoint.
Nice. So was Theodore Herzl, Ze’ev Jabotinsky, David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, and Yitzhak Rabin. In fact, the dominant Zionist group that founded the State of Israel consisted of socialist, non-religious Jews.
Did someone in this comment-thread invoke theological considerations in their argumentation for the establishment of a Jewish state? Otherwise, your point is somewhat of a non-sequitur…
Oyster said
Billal says, Yea there is a long history of jews and muslims living in peace.
Uhhh… saying that the Muslims weren’t as bad as the Christians in how they treated Jews in their society isn’t saying much. It’s like saying I’m cleaner than a garbage can. These dispossessed Jews from Arab/Muslim lands would have a bone to pick with your white-washing of dhimmitude (second-class social status).
Billal also says, Well thats just one of the examples there are other examples like during the holocaust many Jews were hidden in mosques in Europe.
Wow. You really haven’t been clicking on those great links that I’ve been providing in my comments. And this statement of yours is ridiculous. There were very few mosques in Europe during WWII, and its not like the Nazis gave the few that existed a pass on inspections. Quite to the contrary, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and leader of the Palestinians, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, was a close confidant of Adolf Hitler and was personally in-charge of getting Arabs/Muslims to side with the Axis forces (they all did), and succeeded in convincing Yugoslav Muslims to organize into Jew-slaughtering units.
Yeah, so I’m calling bull-shit on that statement about Muslims being the saviors of Jews during the Holocaust. No hard feelings. Care to prove me wrong with some references? Or at least address Palestinian leader Husseini’s Jew-hatred?
Oyster said
Sarah says, I guess the question would be, *if* the settler community stayed, would they identify themselves as Palestinian or Israeli? If Israeli, then they are illegal residents.
Ah, nice! So all those Israeli Arabs who identify as Palestinians, we can evict them? How convenient and just!
In response to your points:
a) Of all the territory seized in the Six Day War, Israel has only formally annexed East Jerusalem, which unites the city and allows Jews the freedom of worship at the Western Wall. The rest of the territory is disputed. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about regarding Israel expanding its territory. Oh, and FYI, in that part of the world, everything’s in dunams, not square feet.
b) of the non-hypothetical points you raise, all are common practices and policies of countries around the world. So why is Israel singled out for special condemnation? Sounds like a double-standard…
As ALilyAmongThorns said, there’s a great example of Arab views of coexistence with Jews in the land of Israel. The butchering and liquidation of Jews in Hebron in 1929. And this was before the “Zionist Entity” that you despise so much was established. So what was their excuse? Just “following orders” of the Grand Mufti?
Sarah, please stop tip-toe’ing around my question. The Palestinians have made it clear in no uncertain terms that the future Palestinian state will be free of Jews. Gaza is a good example. They never make any gestures or statements about Jewish settlers in the West Bank being naturalized into Palestinian citizens. If they truly only hate Israel as a political entity, and not Jews, then this shouldn’t be a problem. But they only talk about about Jews being “transferred” or “evacuated” back to Israel. Why is the population transfer of Jews out of a Palestinian state okay, while the hypothetical transfer of Arabs out of Israel is racist?
Billal said
Oyster:
The Central Mosque of Paris served as a shelter for hundreds of French Jewish children.
Albania saved its Jews too as a matter of fact Albania had a higher Jewish population in its country than it had before the world war because Jews were protected.
Moraccan jews were also protected.
Bulgarian Christians and Muslims also protected the Jews from the Nazi. Oyster I don’t want to break ur shell but there are good people out there. The Holocaust was horrible and its totally insane to believe that Muslims or anyone else didn’t do anything to stop it. I can get some sources but I don’t really see the point its obvious that some Muslims helped the Jews, because it was the right thing to do. Hitler was a horrible man now I’m not sure about Germany’s relationships or Hiter’s relationship at the time, but I’m certain that majority of Christians, Muslims , people in general are and were against what happened to the Jews.
Billal said
Just a little history lesson to make it more understandable…
Algeria was a French colony. France allowed its colonists to get French citizenship there for there were many Muslim Algerian workers in France at the time of the Holocaust. When France was occupied by Germany during the World War 2 the German Nazi’s started persicuting the Jews in France.
Here is what was read to the Algerian workers.
On July 16, 1942, Paris police set out to arrest 28,000 Jews on orders of the French Vichy collaborationist government. They had in hand names and addresses, obtained from a census of Jews the Germans had ordered soon after they occupied France. That day and the next, the police fanned out through the city, packing the arrested Jews into requisitioned city buses. They found only 13,000 – largely because some police officers had spread the word ahead of time and many Jews had fled. More than 4,000 children aged 2 to 16 were among those arrested.
On the second day, a tract was circulated through the miserable hotels that were home to immigrant Algerian workers. The tract, in Tamazight, was read out loud to the mostly illiterate men:
“Yesterday at dawn, the Jews of Paris were arrested. The old, the women, and the children. In exile like ourselves, workers like ourselves. They are our brothers. Their children are like our own children. The one who encounters one of his children must give that child shelter and protection for as long as misfortune – or sorrow – lasts. Oh, man of my country, your heart is generous.
This is when the Central Mosque of Paris was used as a shelter for the Jews. I met a Jewish Lady who knows a Holocaust surviver who was actually sheltered at the central mosque.
Billal said
More than 1,700 people are thought to have found short-term shelter in apartments on or near the grounds of the mosque.
Here is an article by a “hidden child” or a holocaust surviver. I actually met her personally.(she actually did not live in the mosque but she was in France at the time and was helped by a secular organization)
http://www.thestreetspirit.org/Feb2005/mosque.htm
alilyamongthorns said
Oyster, Billal is correct about some Muslim countries saving their Jewish citizens from the Nazis (in the case of Algeria, I believe Jews with French citizenship were deported but those with Algerian citizenship were not). I don’t know much about the other claims but I have heard about those.
However, Billal, one of the tragedies of the Holocaust is how many people knew and did nothing. As Oyster will tell you, Auschwitz is a village and people lived there in WWII but they did nothing. British and US leaders knew a lot more about what was going on in the Holocaust than they let on but they did nothing. US companies (including IBM and a number of car companies) helped the Nazis be more efficient in what they were doing. Russian soldiers, upon liberating concentration camps, raped the women. To me, it’s one of the hardest pills to swallow that so many people “on our side” knew what was going on yet did nothing to stop it. Yes, there were a lot of good righteous people who did speak up, who did fight for what’s right and just and the US soldiers who came upon the concentration camps were absolutely appalled. But the people on the top, their hands aren’t clean.
alilyamongthorns said
Here’s an article about how we could have, but didn’t, bomb Auschwitz even though we had many opportunities to:
http://judaism.about.com/od/holocaust/a/aush_nobomb.htm
“Other “diversions” of military resources for non-military reasons were made during the war, further incriminating the U.S. government’s refusal to bomb Auschwitz. Secretary of War Henry Stimson blocked the plan to bomb the Japanese city of Kyoto because of its artistic treasures. Stimson’s deputy John McCloy, who dismissed many requests to bomb Auschwitz, blocked plans to bomb the German city of Rothenburg because of its famous medieval architecture. And General George Patton diverted U.S. troops to rescue 150 Lipizzaner horses in Austria.”
I mean really, how do you justify letting over a million Jews die while saving some horses?
Benny Blanco said
Billal, like many Palestinian propagandists, adopts a pan-Arab or pan-Muslim posture when it suits the Palestinian cause (e.g. “look, Moroccans helped Jews in WWII, so Jews shouldn’t fear living within a Palestinian-dominated polity”), and yet would disavow any pan-Arab or pan-Muslim argument when it doesn’t suit the Palestinian cause (e.g. “Palestinians would be refugees in other Arab countries; What do Palestinians have to do with the invading Arab armies that expelled Jews?”).
Well which is it? Should Palestinians be held accountable for the anti-Semitism of their Muslim Albanian co-religionists and of the Syrians, Iraqis and other Arabs that expelled their Jewish populations, or should Palestinians be judged favorably in light of the kind treatment Jews received at the hands of other Arabs?
In other words, should the Palestinians be judged in light of good Muslim/Arab behavior toward Jews or bad Muslim/Arab behavior toward Jews?
Personally, I think it’s a moot point either way: There is more than enough hard evidence of home-grown Palestinian animosity toward Jews and Israelis to justify apprehension at the thought of living under Palestinian rule. We saw it when the local Palestinian leadership allied with Hitler in WWII (while the Jews of the Yishuv volunteered overwhelmingly for the Allies BTW), we see it in the Palestinian print and TV media of today, and we see it in the public statements and writings of the current Palestinian leadership.
To suggest that Jewish Israelis willingly embrace Palestinian rule, or entrust their security to an Arab-Muslim majority, is to ignore history, or otherwise to actively wish the Jewish population harm.
Oyster said
Benny Blanco: well-said.
Billal: I thank you for your reference to the story about the Parisian mosque that helped saved Jewish lives. So far, that brings your grand total to 1 mosque that helped save Jewish lives. I don’t doubt that there are Arab “righteous gentiles” that helped save Jews during the Holocaust, but it’s misleading to try to claim that it was the rule, and not the exception to the rule. In light of the fact that not a single Arab/Muslim country resisted the Axis forces (in fact, most sided with the Nazis), and that one of the most prominent Arab leaders of his time, Grand Mufti al-Husseini was actively working alongside Hitler to organize Muslims into Jew-killing death-squads, it’s hard to see these examples of kindness that you cite as the most common scenario.
Just to clarify, there were only 33 Jewish families in Albania before the war. Compare that with 12,000 out of 14,000 Jews of Bosnia/Hercegovina slaughtered by Palestinian-leader Grand-Mufti al-Husseini.
In an interesting article addressing the complexity of Arab involvement in the Holocaust (sometimes as Nazi collaborators and sometimes as righteous gentiles), I found this choice quote:
Arab collaborators were everywhere. These included Arab officials conniving against Jews at royal courts, Arab overseers of Jewish work gangs, sadistic Arab guards at Jewish labor camps and Arab interpreters who went house to house with SS officers pointing out where Jews lived. Without the help of local Arabs, the persecution of Jews would have been virtually impossible.
Finally, Billal, I’ll give you mad-props if you address the issue of the Grand-Mufti al-Husseini. You seem to have some sort of aversion to talking about it. Is there something about it that you don’t want to discuss? Are you not proud of the glorious roots of Palestinian nationalism?
Oyster said
ALilyAmongThorns:
Thanks for providing that link. I’ve been searching for a reference to the “saving horses rather than saving Jews” story that I heard a while back. Very disturbing, indeed.
Also, I’m not sure how common it was for Russian troops to rape concentration camp women. My common sense tells me that the women of these camps would be so starved and diseased (may their tormentors’ names be erased!) as to not be desirable. Do you have a reference?
Billal said
Ohh I’m totally against nationalism, so is our religion. We still see Nationalism within Islam and it may have been our own enemy.
Oh and about Mufti I don’t know what to say only. I mean if the guy was involved in holocaust according to some people. God knows and he will be judged by God.
Here is a verse that I think both of our religions share.
That is why We laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind. — Quran 5:32.
Billal said
Haven’t we learned our lesson, there is soooo much bloodshed in Israels history. People killed wiped out or kicked out of Israel so many times. Haven’t we learned that Jerusalem is loved by Jews, Christians and Muslims. Now that we have Muslims and Jews fighting over it once again, we should not make the same mistakes. We can have a Jewish state or a Palestinian State, but sooner or later there will be a war again just like the past has shown us. Co-Existence and sharing in my opinion is the only way to Peace.
I can care less if Jews have a place the can call an all Jewish State or Palestinians have a country of their own. All I care about is the basic rights of humans beings food, shelter, livelihood and whatnot. My family claims to be one of the lost Jewish tribes, but somehow we ended up in the Indian subcontinent . If thats true and even if my religion were Judaism, I wouldn’t care for a place like Israel where one people are kicked out in order to make it a homeland for the other people. Many Jews were converted you can find Jewish heritage in many parts of the world now. Therefore it Land is land. Zionism is just a nationalist movement based completely on religious ideologies and history. You can’t use history to support something like territory any more its completely wrong because this world is very diverse there are many people who have mixed in or moved on to different places. For example I have Turkish and Persian heritage as well and I’m from Pakistan, ill probably marry another Pakistani who is from a different part of Pakistan there for completely different heritage. Some things can be based on Religion of the other hand, but in this case its completely ridiculous especially when Christians and Muslims believe that the Massiah has already come . Jews on the other hand are still waiting for one .
hahah I’m going all over on this post I think ill just stop talking in a but shell I believe all people should be treated right, and I believe co-existence in a peaceful Israel is the only way to do so. Once these rights are give there will be no more fighting in my opinion.
Billal said
nut shell**
alilyamongthorns said
Oyster,
I learned about that horse story from you, if you remember.
Also, here’s an article about IBM’s involvement
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
and one about US car companies’ involvement during the Holocaust
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm
As for the Russian soldiers raping Jewish women upon liberating concentration camps, I learned about that from your post about “Black Book.” Here’s the link again:
http://www.theverylongview.com/WATH/essays/sexrapesurvival.htm
Sarah said
“Why is the population transfer of Jews out of a Palestinian state okay, while the hypothetical transfer of Arabs out of Israel is racist?”
I already answered that question, the settlers in gaza were not interested in living in Palestine or being citizens of a Palestinian state, they were interested in expanding the state of Israel…
Anyway, it is obvious we have different viewpoints, and I can agree to disagree with you, although I have enjoyed the conversation. I am curious…
Did anyone go see the Tunnel of Oppression and what did you think about it?
lchaimlover said
I did attend the Tunnel of Oppression and will be posting an article with my thoughts this afternoon. Stay Tuned!
Billal said
Any positive feedbacks for Tunnel of Oppression?
I think we kept it pretty clean. It could have been a lot more controversial.
Oyster said
Sarah:
The difference is that while Israel welcomed and reassured the Arabs living in the land allotted to them by the UN Partition Plan of 1947 when the state was established in 1948, there has NEVER been a single word of welcome or encouragement coming from the Palestinian leadership to the Jews living in the disputed territories. I throw down this gauntlet: can you find me a single reference to a Palestinian leader welcoming the Jews in Gaza or the West Bank to become Palestinian citizens in the future Palestinian state? Can you find something that shows the Palestinian leadership to be something other than, you know, anti-Jewish bigots interested in the ethnic cleansing of the disputed territories?
Oyster said
Billal said, I mean if the guy was involved in holocaust according to some people.
Yeah, “some people” like the Nuremberg Trials:
The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
“Some people”, Billal? Like how “some people” believe that the “Holocaust” actually happened?
But I do appreciate your quote from the Qur’an (paraphrased from the Talmud). I’m now very interested in how certain content from Jewish books (Tanakh, Talmud) got into the Qur’an (and other Muslim holy-books).
And despite our differences in opinion, and our debate here, I do hope for peace and civility between our peoples. Amen to you.
Billal said
Alright guys I think this is my last post. I’m going be pretty busy the next couple of months and then I’m going to Guatemala for the summer. Sorry about all the the grammatical errors, I guess there is no way to edit for non-members. Anyways, I was just thinking that maybe JSU/Hillel does not have to get along with students for change. Students for Change is more of a political group, so you guys reserve the right to disagree with us, or to even come to our meetings and maybe join the club. As far as MSA and JSU go though, we should definitely have a good relationship. JSU’s and MSA’s generally tend to have good relationships. I know at Berkeley they have a great relationship. Both of us also do not eat pork, and I’d love to eat at a Kosher restaurant, because sometimes I want to just eat straight up Italian or American foods like steak, or a meatball sandwich. Hmm I wonder if they even have many kosher restaurants around here. haha we have other things in common as well, but right now I’m really hungry. I think I skipped dinner last night :(. Anyways we should really work on it next semester. Peace, Salam, Shalom
alilyamongthorns said
Billal,
Um … do you mean JSU and MSA get along at Berkeley like when the Berkeley MSA brings Amir Abdul Malik to campus?
http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=1531
That is an article about things he’s said in the past but he continues to be a guest speaker for the MSA at Cal.
purnama said
jews very fuck. we…will destroy you….jewish is evil…..
from:moslem
Oyster said
‘Jews very fuck’, indeed.
Purnama very eloquent. We will not edit you comment. Grammar is evil……
amanda said
What kind of democracy that uses F16s, tanks, cluster, phosphorous and DIME bombs against an imprisoned and defenceless population? What kind of army that shoots children and babies in the head and executes their parents before their eyes? What kind of people that support and defend such barbaric acts? And what kind of God would bless such country or people? How far can a group of people be allowed to depart from humanity before they would no longer be regarded as humans?
LONG LIVE OUR NATION F-U-C-K Jews
Can one of you Zionist tell me why the story in the torah and Bible or the same ones in Egyption Religion?? Can One of you Zionist explain how your Religion isnt stolen from Egyption religion?? You occupie palestine with Divine lie? From bogus religion.. You never had land. Your Nomads. So stop telling lies and work with the real owner of land and make peace. But leave the fiction at home, Nothing you can do about a religion thats 3000 years older than yours. but copy off of it.. So Sad
You wish that only muslims would vote for palestine. But anyone thats not stupid would vote against occupation. You came to palestine as refugees and became dictators. with thug IDF the jr Nazis. The Zionist scam is Religion. Your fiction of promised land is laughable. Tell me why your religion stole from Egyption religion. Your fiction dosent stand up to facts. ONLY JEWISH VOTE FOR OCCUPATION. Surf the web and see students in US have rally for palestine. Not just muslims. your just racist
peace will be done when pregn@nt \”israeli\” women get sh0t at and the Palestinian army p0rtrays such b@rbarism on their t-shirts or entire villages get m@ssacred like your Zionist forefathers did to steal the land for Zionists or dime an phosphorus bombs get dropped on \”your\” cities or when land gets confisc@ted from you.
zionism also steals minds,,look how they got those poor people\’s minds washed,,can you believe how deep zionists got their minds washed ? they tell them what happened in gaza was self-defence in spite of 500 children were killed they still repeat after them yes what happened was self-defence
Palestinians have every right, under international law, to fight against the occupying power. It used to be their land until they were evicted at gunpoint by Jewish murdering thugs. The Zionist settlers living on stolen property have no right to live in security or peace. Those who say genocidal racist statements like Israel has the right to defend itself should be ashamed. And when people accept the Zionist right to ma.ss murder and plunder others, they are accepting a criminal ideology
vote for the innocent babies and toddlers, children and teenagers, men and women, mothers and fathers, uncles and cousins, neighbours and friends, who were all ma.ssacred in Gaza for doing no wrong but being born in a land occupied by heartless and ruthless people. Even the unborn, the dead, and pets did not escape Israel’s brutality. Streets and neighbourhoods have vanished, people were incinerated and entire families and generations were wiped out.
In the human history for centuries the Jews were known as liars. Even their religion encourages them to lie
Zionist immigrants plundered Palestine, expelled more than half of its people, slaughtered thousands and imprisoned the rest. But they didn’t stop there. Israel continues the same murderous, ruthless practices of expansion, land confiscation, building of settlements, blockading the Palestinian people, demolishing their homes, depriving them from basic needs, and then imprisoning, bombing and a.ssa.ssinating anyone daring to protest or resist. And any resistance is labelled as terrorism. Hello!
ha ha ha ha which peace? at one time Palestine was a country but israel took Hitler`s revenge from Palestinians and now its a village.
They are not People Of GOD … They are People Of Devil
The same way the Jews Killed Jesus in the past, they are doing the same with the Palestinian kids. VIVA Palestine, Jesus is by your side
israel shall live in peace if they leave arabs in peace,,you do not expect arabs to be peaceful while israeli exterminating palestinians therefore no peace is going to be achieved unless arabs get their stolen land back,,
Did the Zionists have the legal or moral right to invade Arab Palestine, uproot its Arab citizens from their homes and seize all Arab property for themselves just based on the \”religious\” claim that their forefathers lived there thousands of years ago?Only a thousand years ago the Moors lived in Spain.Would this give the Moors of today the legal and moral right to invade the Iberian Peninsula,drive out its Spanish citizens, and then set up a new Moroccan nation,where Spain used to be,as
western countries now make themselves as a sincere patron for jews,,have they forgotten the miserable treatment towards jews during few centuries ago,,Islam has had protected jews from them,,read about jewish history with islam you will definitely find it hard to believe,,Islam gave all humans their civilian rights,,nowadays zionism returning that favor back to palestinians
I would never support murders like Israel. Down with Israel!
I HATE THE VAMPIRS! A HATE VAMPIR JEWS WHO ARE MORE CONTEMPTIBLE THAN PREDOTARY ANIMALS!
The whole world knows that Jews plundered Palestine. No matter how hard you try to twist, turn and flip facts and history, pigs will never fly!
Besides Jesus Himself, perhaps it was the prophet Jeremiah (another “anti-Semite” stoned to death by the Jews for his refusal to see things “their way“) who said it best- “On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, and yet you dare to say ‘I am innocent!’… Among these people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds…Their house is full of deceit and their evil deeds have no limit… No one speaks the truth… They have no shame at all and do not know how to blush…”
You can scream and lie how Jewish have the right to Palestine. But Facts or better than fiction. You can keep using fiction to prove you have claim to palestine. But you cant use fiction in a court of law. you cant reason with fiction or fake God? Will your God take the stand in Court? Stop using Propagand and fiction to excuse your occupation. Peace cant happen while you use Religion and fiction as excuse for occupation. The truth is the only way to peace. Stop protecting a living lie! Fiction
2009 saw yet another disgusting attack on human rights and humanity. Israel wants to become a super power – go ahead, in this life you can kil and humiliate – but in the after life you are the ones who will humilliated – i only pray that your pain n the afterlife is not for eternity and god will eventually forgive the pain you have caused to the people of Palestine and the humane world! Allah akbar!
Israel evacuated 10,000 Israelis from Gaza and “KILLED & INJURED” 6000 Palestinian in Gaza. Think about it
Waht we saw in Ghaza and what we saw before few years in Palestine its clear that Isreal is the world enemy, and it will never make peace with any country in the world, and many thanks for Hetler cause he burned half of them and frankly speaking Isreal deserve more than what Hetler did
It saddens me that thousands of Palestinians were ma*ssacred by Israel in Gaza last year and it saddens me that thousands more are now maimed, orphaned, bereaved and destitute. Jews who defend Israel’s brutality and pretend to be the victims here should be ashamed of themselves. Where is the human in you?
Let the world see how evil zionist and Jews really are. They Steal land they have no right two. They use Religion and claims of Divie rights to Arab Land. Is that legal? To use Religion as excuse to steal and kill? What kinda Wicked Religion is this? Sounds Satanic! Anywho The occupation of palestine is not legal. And UN needs to fix the mess it made. Kicking palestinians off their land to please wicked Zionist is here for the world to see. Look in see evil in Israel! Murder of babies
THE PALESTINIANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE FREE FROM THE EVIL ZIONIST OPPRESION!!!!! ONE THING ISRAEL DOES NOT KNOW, THAT THE PALESTINIANS ARE STRONG AND NO MATTER WHAT ISRAEL DOES TO THEM, THEY WILL NEVER EVER GIVE UP!!!!! THEY HAVENT GIVEN UP IN 70+ YEARS, WHY SHOULD THEY GIVE UP NOW!!!!!!!!
amanda said
I HATE THE VAMPIRS! A HATE VAMPIR JEWS WHO ARE MORE CONTEMPTIBLE THAN PREDOTARY ANIMALS!
Bilal said
ha ha ha ha which peace? at one time Palestine was a country but israel took Hitler`s revenge from Palestinians and now its a village.
They are not People Of GOD … They are People Of Devil
The same way the Jews Killed Jesus in the past, they are doing the same with the Palestinian kids. VIVA Palestine, Jesus is by your side
Stefon said
vote for the innocent babies and toddlers, children and teenagers, men and women, mothers and fathers, uncles and cousins, neighbours and friends, who were all ma.ssacred in Gaza for doing no wrong but being born in a land occupied by heartless and ruthless people. Even the unborn, the dead, and pets did not escape Israel’s brutality. Streets and neighbourhoods have vanished, people were incinerated and entire families and generations were wiped out.
In the human history for centuries the Jews were known as liars. Even their religion encourages them to lie
Ahmed said
Hi guys,
Listen, I’m a Pakistani muslim living in Austria. I’m neither pro Israel nor anti. But seriously, take a good look at the picture. The whole thing seems just odd… The persons in it seem arranged and also the shadows they throw (or not throw) are a good inicadtion for the following: It’s probably fake! Come on guys, there sure is alot of shit going on in the Middle East. So why use fake propaganda? And to the consumer of such material, always keep your eyes open.
Oyster said
I think many people agree with you Ahmed.
Nina said
It’s completely fair. I am a 28 year old woman from the US who until rigorous self study has learned the Zionist position from my media every day. I have never seen or heard the reality of what the Palestinians face until meeting Palestinians, friends that have been there and now objective books on the topic. For once let the oppressed have their voice be the “mainstream.”
Today I read about 8 students from Uruguay making aliyah, and I just can’t believe it. No where is this allowed in any other country and yet we the world are supposed to believe Israel wants peace? 8 people more means 8 people less.